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	<title>Comments on: Snapshots Vs. Trends in School Testing</title>
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	<link>http://www.showmedaily.org/2010/07/snapshots-vs-trends-in-school.html</link>
	<description>Advancing liberty with responsibility by promoting market solutions for Missouri public policy</description>
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		<title>By: Eapen Thampy</title>
		<link>http://www.showmedaily.org/2010/07/snapshots-vs-trends-in-school.html/comment-page-1#comment-7406</link>
		<dc:creator>Eapen Thampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 17:13:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What&#039;s *the* warrant?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s *the* warrant?</p>
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		<title>By: Abhi Sivasailam</title>
		<link>http://www.showmedaily.org/2010/07/snapshots-vs-trends-in-school.html/comment-page-1#comment-7405</link>
		<dc:creator>Abhi Sivasailam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 17:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.showmedaily.org/?p=20205#comment-7405</guid>
		<description>1.) You make a fair point about the offensiveness of the poorer quality input analogy. Conceded.

2.) The constraint you refer to was one that I implicitly assumed when asking my question. It seemed frivolous to me to ask instead: &quot;Are Paideia&#039;s current students - who were previously students at other schools - learning more (relative to to the value-added distribution for their grade level) now than they were before the school existed?&quot;. I assumed that this degree of clarity was unnecessary and trusted the reader to intuit certain basic constraints. Perhaps, that too was my mistake.

3.) You&#039;re right; there may be no, or few, absolute truths in debates over educational interventions. Yet, I assert that there are meaningful insights to be gained from looking at education as subject to a production function. When we consider all the inputs into this production function, we find that student attributes matter a great deal. Characteristics like neighborhood effects, peer effects, family attributes exist on a quality spectrum and often, these characteristics crystallize in patterned ways in students. When I referred to certain students as &quot;poorer quality inputs&quot;, I was suggesting that these were students functioning as a nexus where poorer quality neighborhood, peer, and family effects crystallize.

Abstracting students and their characteristics will not lead us toward pure and ultimate truths in the economics of education. It can, however, furnish a meaningful paradigm to test interactions with specific educational interventions so we may arrive at general, useful conclusions about how education reform operates for different populations of students.

So, while there are no &#039;single formulas&#039;, there are useful general principles and looking at inputs is a way of arriving at these principles.

Finally, your claim that we ask too much of schools is an interesting one. I do not doubt that there are manners in which we overburden schools, yet I also know that many schools are notoriously opposed to changes in institutional frameworks (a discussion for another day) that promote the kind of competition and incentives that are conducive to significant educational innovations. Certainly, that&#039;s not too much to ask.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1.) You make a fair point about the offensiveness of the poorer quality input analogy. Conceded.</p>
<p>2.) The constraint you refer to was one that I implicitly assumed when asking my question. It seemed frivolous to me to ask instead: &#8220;Are Paideia&#8217;s current students &#8211; who were previously students at other schools &#8211; learning more (relative to to the value-added distribution for their grade level) now than they were before the school existed?&#8221;. I assumed that this degree of clarity was unnecessary and trusted the reader to intuit certain basic constraints. Perhaps, that too was my mistake.</p>
<p>3.) You&#8217;re right; there may be no, or few, absolute truths in debates over educational interventions. Yet, I assert that there are meaningful insights to be gained from looking at education as subject to a production function. When we consider all the inputs into this production function, we find that student attributes matter a great deal. Characteristics like neighborhood effects, peer effects, family attributes exist on a quality spectrum and often, these characteristics crystallize in patterned ways in students. When I referred to certain students as &#8220;poorer quality inputs&#8221;, I was suggesting that these were students functioning as a nexus where poorer quality neighborhood, peer, and family effects crystallize.</p>
<p>Abstracting students and their characteristics will not lead us toward pure and ultimate truths in the economics of education. It can, however, furnish a meaningful paradigm to test interactions with specific educational interventions so we may arrive at general, useful conclusions about how education reform operates for different populations of students.</p>
<p>So, while there are no &#8217;single formulas&#8217;, there are useful general principles and looking at inputs is a way of arriving at these principles.</p>
<p>Finally, your claim that we ask too much of schools is an interesting one. I do not doubt that there are manners in which we overburden schools, yet I also know that many schools are notoriously opposed to changes in institutional frameworks (a discussion for another day) that promote the kind of competition and incentives that are conducive to significant educational innovations. Certainly, that&#8217;s not too much to ask.</p>
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		<title>By: Eapen Thampy</title>
		<link>http://www.showmedaily.org/2010/07/snapshots-vs-trends-in-school.html/comment-page-1#comment-7404</link>
		<dc:creator>Eapen Thampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 17:12:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.showmedaily.org/?p=20205#comment-7404</guid>
		<description>Tom, 
That&#039;s a fairly broad critique of the entirety of educational economics, and actually of most of the rest of economics. What&#039;s warrant as to why abstraction is bad?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom,<br />
That&#8217;s a fairly broad critique of the entirety of educational economics, and actually of most of the rest of economics. What&#8217;s warrant as to why abstraction is bad?</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Duda</title>
		<link>http://www.showmedaily.org/2010/07/snapshots-vs-trends-in-school.html/comment-page-1#comment-7403</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Duda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 16:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.showmedaily.org/?p=20205#comment-7403</guid>
		<description>I strongly object to the characterization of &quot;poorer students from historically disadvantaged ethnic backgrounds&quot; as &quot;poorer quality inputs.&quot; It&#039;s simply offensive.

By what measure are you gauging a student&#039;s &quot;poor[ness]?&quot;

I make no claims to an understanding of logic or logical reasoning, so I could be wrong to point out that the question &quot;Are Paideia&#039;s students learning more now than they were before the school existed?&quot; does not acknowledge a rather basic constraint: Were the students in question even students prior to the school&#039;s chartering and operation? 

My view? We ask too much of schools. There&#039;s no quick fix or single formula for success or failure in life or in society. We can&#039;t look at policies in a vacuum. And we lose far too much when reducing persons and lives into a concept as abstract as an &quot;input.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I strongly object to the characterization of &#8220;poorer students from historically disadvantaged ethnic backgrounds&#8221; as &#8220;poorer quality inputs.&#8221; It&#8217;s simply offensive.</p>
<p>By what measure are you gauging a student&#8217;s &#8220;poor[ness]?&#8221;</p>
<p>I make no claims to an understanding of logic or logical reasoning, so I could be wrong to point out that the question &#8220;Are Paideia&#8217;s students learning more now than they were before the school existed?&#8221; does not acknowledge a rather basic constraint: Were the students in question even students prior to the school&#8217;s chartering and operation? </p>
<p>My view? We ask too much of schools. There&#8217;s no quick fix or single formula for success or failure in life or in society. We can&#8217;t look at policies in a vacuum. And we lose far too much when reducing persons and lives into a concept as abstract as an &#8220;input.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Papillon</title>
		<link>http://www.showmedaily.org/2010/07/snapshots-vs-trends-in-school.html/comment-page-1#comment-7383</link>
		<dc:creator>Papillon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.showmedaily.org/?p=20205#comment-7383</guid>
		<description>Did/could Paideia make the claim that test scores did improve?  I couldn&#039;t find it in the P-D article.  If they could, I would say that closing it down is a mistake; going from D- to D+ is improvement and should be rewarded/compensated as such, perhaps even more than a B- to B+.  

Yes, testing may be given too much weight, but you&#039;ve got have some way to measure the student from Moberly vs. Webster vs. Paideia to see what they know.  With grade inflation and other subjective measures, every student &#039;should&#039; on the honor roll.  (Favorite part of the book &#039;Bonfire of the Vanities&#039;: Teacher &#039;We grade students from cooperative to life-threatening&#039;  Reporter &#039;Was he an honor roll student on that scale?&#039;)  Intelligence is a tough thing to define, but making sure that students have received certain knowledge is in the interests of everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did/could Paideia make the claim that test scores did improve?  I couldn&#8217;t find it in the P-D article.  If they could, I would say that closing it down is a mistake; going from D- to D+ is improvement and should be rewarded/compensated as such, perhaps even more than a B- to B+.  </p>
<p>Yes, testing may be given too much weight, but you&#8217;ve got have some way to measure the student from Moberly vs. Webster vs. Paideia to see what they know.  With grade inflation and other subjective measures, every student &#8217;should&#8217; on the honor roll.  (Favorite part of the book &#8216;Bonfire of the Vanities&#8217;: Teacher &#8216;We grade students from cooperative to life-threatening&#8217;  Reporter &#8216;Was he an honor roll student on that scale?&#8217;)  Intelligence is a tough thing to define, but making sure that students have received certain knowledge is in the interests of everyone.</p>
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