Comments on: Should Missouri Have a Bottle Deposit Law? http://www.showmedaily.org/2009/07/bottle-deposit-law.html Advancing liberty with responsibility by promoting market solutions for Missouri public policy Thu, 24 May 2012 00:36:33 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Yes, start charging the 5 to 10 cents http://www.showmedaily.org/2009/07/bottle-deposit-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-12030 Yes, start charging the 5 to 10 cents Mon, 06 Feb 2012 18:37:04 +0000 http://www.showmedaily.org/?p=6040#comment-12030 Yes, start charging the 5 to 10 cents. As I will return mine so it cost me nothing, then spend my time collecting from the lazy people, like I did when I was young; collecting pop bottles! Even paid for Gas to cruise the main when in High School. Bring it on! Yes, start charging the 5 to 10 cents. As I will return mine so it cost me nothing, then spend my time collecting from the lazy people, like I did when I was young; collecting pop bottles! Even paid for Gas to cruise the main when in High School. Bring it on!

]]> By: S/A http://www.showmedaily.org/2009/07/bottle-deposit-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-3187 S/A Tue, 04 Aug 2009 01:27:21 +0000 http://www.showmedaily.org/?p=6040#comment-3187 St. Louis county has competing trash disposal services that people pay for. I would recommend any area with monopolized trash service switch. You have to remember to bring the cans along, lug them along w/ your other stuff and in the case of people working later shifts find a place that is 24 hrs. You create extra work for people in the areas that have curbside recycling unless they want to lose money. It's annoying. But that's all besides the point. It is not okay to use government to enforce your beliefs of what a person SHOULD do. If you take government beyond the scope of rights enforcement or service providing into the field of changing behavior it is inconsistent to take issue with others doing the same. In other words the proposed plan where people are forced to buy health insurance or pay a penalty is fine. Forcing people to save for retirement or pay a penalty is fine. Prohibiting cigarettes, alcohol, drug use, fast food, or whatever else anyone may take issue with is fine as long as the punishment is a fine. St. Louis county has competing trash disposal services that people pay for. I would recommend any area with monopolized trash service switch.

You have to remember to bring the cans along, lug them along w/ your other stuff and in the case of people working later shifts find a place that is 24 hrs. You create extra work for people in the areas that have curbside recycling unless they want to lose money. It’s annoying. But that’s all besides the point.

It is not okay to use government to enforce your beliefs of what a person SHOULD do. If you take government beyond the scope of rights enforcement or service providing into the field of changing behavior it is inconsistent to take issue with others doing the same. In other words the proposed plan where people are forced to buy health insurance or pay a penalty is fine. Forcing people to save for retirement or pay a penalty is fine. Prohibiting cigarettes, alcohol, drug use, fast food, or whatever else anyone may take issue with is fine as long as the punishment is a fine.

]]> By: JW http://www.showmedaily.org/2009/07/bottle-deposit-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-3183 JW Mon, 03 Aug 2009 16:50:48 +0000 http://www.showmedaily.org/?p=6040#comment-3183 What about recycling for everything that's not a beverage container? We tried the deposit law in Columbia, and while it works, there's a better way. The blue bag system they use now is much easier. The best way to encourage recycling is to make it easy for citizens. What about recycling for everything that’s not a beverage container? We tried the deposit law in Columbia, and while it works, there’s a better way. The blue bag system they use now is much easier. The best way to encourage recycling is to make it easy for citizens.

]]> By: David Stokes http://www.showmedaily.org/2009/07/bottle-deposit-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-3169 David Stokes Sat, 01 Aug 2009 22:34:04 +0000 http://www.showmedaily.org/?p=6040#comment-3169 I really don't think there are many increased trips - it just becomes something you bring along with you to do when you go to the store for other reasons. I don't know how exactly they work it for the stores involved, but I have to guess they receive some money back for the work they do. Sort of like how businesses that pay their withheld MO state sales and income taxes on time get to keep a small amount of that money as a payment for doing the collecting. If they don't get some of the money, than any Missouri plan should put that in. I really don’t think there are many increased trips – it just becomes something you bring along with you to do when you go to the store for other reasons. I don’t know how exactly they work it for the stores involved, but I have to guess they receive some money back for the work they do. Sort of like how businesses that pay their withheld MO state sales and income taxes on time get to keep a small amount of that money as a payment for doing the collecting. If they don’t get some of the money, than any Missouri plan should put that in.

]]> By: Steve http://www.showmedaily.org/2009/07/bottle-deposit-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-3167 Steve Sat, 01 Aug 2009 15:58:03 +0000 http://www.showmedaily.org/?p=6040#comment-3167 Yes! A bottle/can deposit about triples the recycling rate and reduces litter. Even though aluminum does have the incentive over plastic of having a scrap value (therefore some people will collect their cans and take them to a recycling center), the recycling rate on cans isn't really much higher than plastic bottles. People "do bother" to return for the 5 or 10 cent refund, infact in MI about 97% of deposit containers are returned for recycling. Deposits are an effective program that work very well and it makes more sense than local governments and taxpayers being stuck with the high cost of litter cleanup, waste disposal and curbside recycling. There is nothing complicated about taking empties back to the store when you're returning to buy more soda or beer. As to the concern about retailers handling the containers, many states now use redemption centers which are next to or near the grocery stores. California for example the retailers and distributors are basically not involved at all and their deposit program is a great way to fund local recycling. Due to the bottle bill "Californians have recycled more than 10 million tons of beverage containers (nearly 80%.) No other recycling program or policy in CA has resulted in higher recycling levels, and no program of its kind in the country has been found to be more cost effective." Yes! A bottle/can deposit about triples the recycling rate and reduces litter. Even though aluminum does have the incentive over plastic of having a scrap value (therefore some people will collect their cans and take them to a recycling center), the recycling rate on cans isn’t really much higher than plastic bottles. People “do bother” to return for the 5 or 10 cent refund, infact in MI about 97% of deposit containers are returned for recycling. Deposits are an effective program that work very well and it makes more sense than local governments and taxpayers being stuck with the high cost of litter cleanup, waste disposal and curbside recycling. There is nothing complicated about taking empties back to the store when you’re returning to buy more soda or beer. As to the concern about retailers handling the containers, many states now use redemption centers which are next to or near the grocery stores. California for example the retailers and distributors are basically not involved at all and their deposit program is a great way to fund local recycling. Due to the bottle bill “Californians have recycled more than 10 million tons of beverage containers (nearly 80%.) No other recycling program or policy in CA has resulted in higher recycling levels, and no program of its kind in the country has been found to be more cost effective.”

]]> By: S/A http://www.showmedaily.org/2009/07/bottle-deposit-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-3163 S/A Sat, 01 Aug 2009 05:01:20 +0000 http://www.showmedaily.org/?p=6040#comment-3163 Yeah the issue is not that the bottles don't get returned. The issue is that between the increased number of trips to the store, paper work from all the stores selling canned/bottled beverages and energy used by the machines to crush each can going through the revolver instead of crushing lots at once like commercial recycling centers I'd be surprised if there is any real environmental benefit left. And taking yet another avenue of stores doing governments work for them is not great. Yeah the issue is not that the bottles don’t get returned. The issue is that between the increased number of trips to the store, paper work from all the stores selling canned/bottled beverages and energy used by the machines to crush each can going through the revolver instead of crushing lots at once like commercial recycling centers I’d be surprised if there is any real environmental benefit left. And taking yet another avenue of stores doing governments work for them is not great.

]]> By: Jack Naudi http://www.showmedaily.org/2009/07/bottle-deposit-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-3162 Jack Naudi Sat, 01 Aug 2009 04:03:28 +0000 http://www.showmedaily.org/?p=6040#comment-3162 I lived in Michigan for 14 years: Almost EVERYBODY brought back their containers. And for those who didn't there was a thriving side business of people foraging for bottles. It really has worked to clean up Michigan. And if you're going to do it, it should be 10 cents, because 5 cents might not be enough of a cost to encourage returns. I am sensitive to the argument that private sector recycling, or market forces, should be brought to bear, but the lefty side of me says there is a greater good that requires government intervention to carry out. I lived in Michigan for 14 years: Almost EVERYBODY brought back their containers. And for those who didn’t there was a thriving side business of people foraging for bottles. It really has worked to clean up Michigan.
And if you’re going to do it, it should be 10 cents, because 5 cents might not be enough of a cost to encourage returns.
I am sensitive to the argument that private sector recycling, or market forces, should be brought to bear, but the lefty side of me says there is a greater good that requires government intervention to carry out.

]]> By: S/A http://www.showmedaily.org/2009/07/bottle-deposit-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-3161 S/A Sat, 01 Aug 2009 03:28:03 +0000 http://www.showmedaily.org/?p=6040#comment-3161 So I was reposting Facebook comments and it carried the read mores over... heh So I was reposting Facebook comments and it carried the read mores over… heh

]]> By: S/A http://www.showmedaily.org/2009/07/bottle-deposit-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-3160 S/A Sat, 01 Aug 2009 03:25:48 +0000 http://www.showmedaily.org/?p=6040#comment-3160 No. The costs are born out by the grocery stores. The way the deposit recycling works is that you collect cans and bottles in a trash bag in your garage (or the hallway of your apartment :( if you don't have a house) and then take your bag to the grocery store or big box store where you feed all the cans one at a time into machines that then spit out a receipt you take to a cash register which they then apply to your purchases or give to you as cash. They then send their receipts and wait for the state to pay them since when the cans/bottles are sold you send the money to the state since they will not necessarily be returned to your location and unless you are a grocery store or big box store you are unable to take returns. It's a pain in the ass for stores and consumers and plenty of consumers don't even bother with it and just wait for children or poor people to come along and take the cans/bottles. I liked it when I was a teenager living in Michigan and could make extra money from it since I lived in a giant apartment community walking distance from a 24 hr grocery store (although I also disliked the extra work it gave me at my job at Dollar Tree) but now it would just be lots of wasted gas going to the grocery store to return cans. Which destroys the environmental aspect of it anyway and ends up being me spending more money so that the state can spend more money in order to take recycling out of my hands. Realistically RIGHT NOW anyone throwing away aluminum cans is paying for it since they could be turning them in to recycling centers for profit. This is all aside from the fact that this is using the government to enforce behaviors you find desirable and in that sense is no different than sin taxes or helmet laws. Societal pressure toward normative behavior is fine. Government enforcement of it is not. No. The costs are born out by the grocery stores. The way the deposit recycling works is that you collect cans and bottles in a trash bag in your garage (or the hallway of your apartment :( if you don’t have a house) and then take your bag to the grocery store or big box store where you feed all the cans one at a time into machines that then spit out a receipt you take to a cash register which they then apply to your purchases or give to you as cash. They then send their receipts and wait for the state to pay them since when the cans/bottles are sold you send the money to the state since they will not necessarily be returned to your location and unless you are a grocery store or big box store you are unable to take returns. It’s a pain in the ass for stores and consumers and plenty of consumers don’t even bother with it and just wait for children or poor people to come along and take the cans/bottles. I liked it when I was a teenager living in Michigan and could make extra money from it since I lived in a giant apartment community walking distance from a 24 hr grocery store (although I also disliked the extra work it gave me at my job at Dollar Tree) but now it would just be lots of wasted gas going to the grocery store to return cans. Which destroys the environmental aspect of it anyway and ends up being me spending more money so that the state can spend more money in order to take recycling out of my hands. Realistically RIGHT NOW anyone throwing away aluminum cans is paying for it since they could be turning them in to recycling centers for profit. This is all aside from the fact that this is using the government to enforce behaviors you find desirable and in that sense is no different than sin taxes or helmet laws. Societal pressure toward normative behavior is fine. Government enforcement of it is not.

]]> By: vroman http://www.showmedaily.org/2009/07/bottle-deposit-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-3157 vroman Fri, 31 Jul 2009 21:19:59 +0000 http://www.showmedaily.org/?p=6040#comment-3157 Josh: You are correct, most ppl wont do this and will just throw away the cans regardless. However, homeless have a comparative advantage in picking up primary consumers' trash. They will reap the consumer surplus forfeited by first-users. This has a side benefit of out-sourcing some amount of street cleaning. I dont litter under normal circumstance, but I feel no qualm whatsoever throwing a can on the ground bc I know a bum will pick it up. In fact this makes it easier for them bc they dont have to hunt for it in dumpsters. Anecdotally this works, as I never see cans around my neighborhood more than 24hrs, while other debris lingers. It could be argued that a deposit on ALL trash-creating products, would be equivalent to a consumption tax; both eliminating the need to charge for municipal garbage service, and give income to otherwise unemployable ppl, reducing need for welfare services. Also this is not dependent on govt being able to run a cost-effective recycling program. The deposit could be merged with sales tax to prevent bureacratic growth while keeping revenue static (ie you pay 25 cents in tax, and can get back 10 cents when you return the detritus). If the rate is judged too high then consumers could do the legwork of returning it themselves. Josh:
You are correct, most ppl wont do this and will just throw away the cans regardless. However, homeless have a comparative advantage in picking up primary consumers’ trash. They will reap the consumer surplus forfeited by first-users. This has a side benefit of out-sourcing some amount of street cleaning. I dont litter under normal circumstance, but I feel no qualm whatsoever throwing a can on the ground bc I know a bum will pick it up. In fact this makes it easier for them bc they dont have to hunt for it in dumpsters. Anecdotally this works, as I never see cans around my neighborhood more than 24hrs, while other debris lingers.
It could be argued that a deposit on ALL trash-creating products, would be equivalent to a consumption tax; both eliminating the need to charge for municipal garbage service, and give income to otherwise unemployable ppl, reducing need for welfare services. Also this is not dependent on govt being able to run a cost-effective recycling program. The deposit could be merged with sales tax to prevent bureacratic growth while keeping revenue static (ie you pay 25 cents in tax, and can get back 10 cents when you return the detritus). If the rate is judged too high then consumers could do the legwork of returning it themselves.

]]> By: David Stokes http://www.showmedaily.org/2009/07/bottle-deposit-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-3156 David Stokes Fri, 31 Jul 2009 21:01:00 +0000 http://www.showmedaily.org/?p=6040#comment-3156 We didn't have to crush the cans we returned when we were in Michigan, just store and transport back. It was very, very easy. And it does not have to be ten cents: most states have it at five. We didn’t have to crush the cans we returned when we were in Michigan, just store and transport back. It was very, very easy. And it does not have to be ten cents: most states have it at five.

]]> By: Josh Smith http://www.showmedaily.org/2009/07/bottle-deposit-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-3155 Josh Smith Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:03:13 +0000 http://www.showmedaily.org/?p=6040#comment-3155 I drink a lot of soda, and am willing to crush, store and transport the cans to recover my deposit. But most people probably aren't and I'd rather keep my ten cents in the first place, really. I drink a lot of soda, and am willing to crush, store and transport the cans to recover my deposit. But most people probably aren’t and I’d rather keep my ten cents in the first place, really.

]]> By: Eric D. Dixon http://www.showmedaily.org/2009/07/bottle-deposit-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-3154 Eric D. Dixon Fri, 31 Jul 2009 19:14:59 +0000 http://www.showmedaily.org/?p=6040#comment-3154 Boo. Boo.

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